FORUM RULES and WIKI cleanup

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Sash
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 18:52    Post subject: FORUM RULES and WIKI cleanup Reply with quote
ok guys. i need your help. since i have to answer always the same questions i wanna create some forum rules which are always true for every user in every case. they should be followed before posting to minimize forum overhead and to save some time of us mods.

so feel free to post your comments and i will create/formulate the rules

so get your ass up ..help us...and be part of the community Rolling Eyes

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Last edited by Sash on Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:46; edited 5 times in total
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redhawk0
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 19:05    Post subject: Reply with quote
http://www.dd-wrt.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=327

Already a sticky in the Broadcom English forum.

redhawk

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Sash
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 19:10    Post subject: Reply with quote
but there is more. and it muste be not broadcom specific.

things like:
-check the router database/supported devices list
-there a flashing instructions for every device in the stabel folder
-be sure to have the latest stable installed
-read the wiki faq
......+ the things in the braodcom topic

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barryware
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 19:12    Post subject: Reply with quote
This isn't a rule... Just a suggestion and not a complaint.

There are a few stickied posts that over the weeks / months have gotten cluttered up with comments that don't have anything to do with the topic.

The peacock thread for instance along with the thread Redhawk linked to. TM install thread is a mess and the jtag thread could use a little trimming. I would like to see those cleaned up.

The OP of the stickies can edit only thier own contribution. If garbage gets added to the thread, only a mod can do the cleaning so I am not sure the best way to go about it.

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Sash
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 19:21    Post subject: Reply with quote
this is something that annoys me. stickys which are usefull should be moved to the wiki...thats why its there.

the next months i try to manage to get some sort of structure to the wikki...which annoys me in the current state, too.
it should be the fist place to search for standard problems

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Throw some buzzwords into the WIKI search Exclamation
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cyberde
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 19:38    Post subject: Reply with quote
I totally agree, I almost stopped answering the same questions over and over again. People don't seem to read anything anymore and just post their question.

Is it possible to ask those questions, have you read the wiki etc before someone posts a new thread? For example that you have to tick a box or enter a CAPCHA to confirm you've read it. Or is that too annoying :P

Sash wrote:

it should be the fist place to search for standard problems

Exactly, but most of the "new" users either don't know about the wiki or just don't care about reading or searching themselves.

I also think that more moderators are needed to clean up the forums.

And Sash, thanks for pointing me to this thread, maybe I can help Smile

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Murrkf
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 22:10    Post subject: Reply with quote
I was directed here by a PM from Sash.

My feeling on this is that wiki are for isolated specific topics. They are for the detail. And, because they rely on users to edit and modify, they fall into disrepair and become obsolete. The wikis are a mess.

Stickies have a function. They are different than wiki material. The peacock thread that I created receives about 500 hits a day and deals with common questions and issues. It is one stop shopping for many noobs. It links to relevant posts and helps many users on a daily basis. It is right there on entry to the forum. Many of those who post reqularly rely on that thread as a shortcut for re-typing the same information over and over again. Which is exactly what it was designed to do.

I feel strongly that people need a post of general information compiled in one place in a sticky.

Providing people with more sources of information in a variety of formats is an effective way to distribute information and keep posts minimized and relevant. Otherwise, people will instead post the same question over and over again, and ask that it be answered because they didn't see a sticky on it.

I agree that the wiki needs a LOT of work. I also agree with Barryware about the fact that the Peacock Thread needs to be shortened and irrelevant posts removed. That would make people less afraid to read it.

People are lazy. Putting info in the wiki out of reach will not change that. It will only add to the unresearched "useless" threads in the forum. I have noticed a significant reduction in basic questions since the peacock thread was written.

So, like I say. I strongly object to the idea of saying you have to find all the information in the wiki. There is nothing wrong with having stickies, but some are obsolete.

I don't think we need a sticky on the non-jtag method of installing on a wrt54gv5 anymore, (there are TWO stickies on installing to the wrt54g v.5) or that super simple SNMP graph that I can't understand. THOSE should properly be in the WIKI.

So I agree that specific information should be in the wiki, general commonly needed information like the peacock, jtag etc. should be in the stickies, and the forum should be where people go to ask questions about things that they don't understand.

I have other thoughts on this, but I am concerned about losing the post due to time limits.

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Murrkf
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 22:15    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sash wrote:

things like:
-check the router database/supported devices list

SNIP

-be sure to have the latest stable installed
-


Also, these are inconsistent. That router database and the supported devices wiki also need a lot of work.

People will not follow rules if they don't have to. And you will be overwhelmed if you try to enforce rules by deleting posts.

If the website was re-designed so that on entry there were certain topics that you had to read in order to post, that might deal with one problem, but it would be cumbersome and likely ineffective.

Before proposing rules, I think a decision must be made about what, exactly, the problem is that is attempting to be fixed. Rules should have a purpose/goal and that needs to be determined first.

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SIG:
I'm trying to teach you to fish, not give you a fish. If you just want a fish, wait for a fisherman who hands them out. I'm more of a fishing instructor. So See this:
http://i31.tinypic.com/24mz3ms.png

LOM: "If you show that you have not bothered to read the forum announcements or to follow the advices in them then the level of help available for you will drop substantially, also known as Murrkf's law.."
soulstace
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Posts: 6427

PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 0:28    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well said Murrkf

Besides, rules are meant to be broken. And with noone actually moderating the forums a majority of the time, I fail to see the point in another sticky thread that most users will ignore :P

Good luck! Laughing
Sash
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:04    Post subject: Reply with quote
i think the problem with stickys is.....nobody even reads the headlines. see the broadcom forum. there are 13 stickys right now. and i just scroll down to come to the topic and just ignore them, too. there are to many of them. u cant do sticky an every usefull topic u see. all the tuts and standard info should be moved to the wiki.

thats why i (re)moved all unnecessary stickys in the atheros/senau/ubnt forums and just left really imported ones....but they dont even get read and i have to tell those noobs to read the 3 fu**ing stickys that are left.

i agree that the wikis a mess and its really annoying but im in touch with the newmedia guys and BS and i think we can get this managed.

i also agree that we need more mods....and remove a few of the mods that i dont have seen here in 2,5 years.or does sombody know: elektik (33 posts), daedalus01 (74) and lawnmowerguy1 (164) all of em since 2006.(...and there is this mysterious "eko" ,too *G*)
sorry but they dont need to be mods. i know hebeda. hes not in very often but he does moding from time to time in the x86/atheros/....forums

i will speak to BS and madmcpete that we can remove them and activate some of u guys. give me a hint how many mod for the forums we need. some parts need more...some less man power
and who is interested in this dirty jobs?

everymody how knows me knows that im the man of short answers so this all should show how impaortant this whole thing is to me.

fyi
got this pm
    Quote:
    Ich les einfach das Forum nichtmehr Smile

    das is natuerlich auch ne moeglichkeit...aba genau das zeigt das es schwer happert an den ecken und enden, wenn poweruser keinen bock mehr haben. aba das sind die leute die den laden am laufen halten...

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Murrkf
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:03    Post subject: Reply with quote
I agree with what you are trying to do, but care needs to be used in how it is done. With respect to the wiki, someone who really understands things and can write precisely needs to go in and re-write most of the articles and bring them up to date. This is a massive job.

With the stickies, that is much easier because all that has to be done is watch the read count for a week. If the posts are not being read, they are not serving a useful purpose and should be removed from being a sticky. This would allow them to float and still be available for those who wish to search for them.

With respect to the forum, I think all rules should just be related to offensiveness and ensuring the forum is a comfortable place for all. And even this should not be strictly enforced. The separate thing the forum needs are guidelines for posting, which should be carefully worded and listed at the top of each forum, and should be consistent. I think this is actually what you are looking for and if so we can help you with that.

With respect to moderators, again, these must be chosen carefully. People often seem to have power go to their heads and feel that if they have power, they need to use it. That can destroy a forum. These people need to have level heads, and be around reasonably regularly.

Redhawk is an obvious choice in this regard.

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SIG:
I'm trying to teach you to fish, not give you a fish. If you just want a fish, wait for a fisherman who hands them out. I'm more of a fishing instructor. So See this:
http://i31.tinypic.com/24mz3ms.png

LOM: "If you show that you have not bothered to read the forum announcements or to follow the advices in them then the level of help available for you will drop substantially, also known as Murrkf's law.."
Sash
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:46    Post subject: Reply with quote
Murrkf wrote:
I agree with what you are trying to do, but care needs to be used in how it is done. With respect to the wiki, someone who really understands things and can write precisely needs to go in and re-write most of the articles and bring them up to date. This is a massive job.

yes it is. but i think this can be done with a few guys. we only have to create some wiki rules how to do it. thats something we can see and get at e.g. wikipedia
Quote:

With the stickies, that is much easier because all that has to be done is watch the read count for a week. If the posts are not being read, they are not serving a useful purpose and should be removed from being a sticky. This would allow them to float and still be available for those who wish to search for them.

With respect to the forum, I think all rules should just be related to offensiveness and ensuring the forum is a comfortable place for all. And even this should not be strictly enforced. The separate thing the forum needs are guidelines for posting, which should be carefully worded and listed at the top of each forum, and should be consistent. I think this is actually what you are looking for and if so we can help you with that.
ack. but i would do a overall forum like ubnt had done
http://ubnt.com/forum/index.php

Quote:

With respect to moderators, again, these must be chosen carefully. People often seem to have power go to their heads and feel that if they have power, they need to use it. That can destroy a forum. These people need to have level heads, and be around reasonably regularly.

Redhawk is an obvious choice in this regard.

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GEGEN die EEG-UMLAGE auf EIGENVERBRAUCH!
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Forum Guidelines...How to get help
&
Forum Rules
&
RTFM/STFW
&
Throw some buzzwords into the WIKI search Exclamation
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freonchill
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 13:18    Post subject: Reply with quote
i will have to agree that the wiki is broken
when trying to find a reference i typically find the german wiki contents before i find the english.

ive given up on using the wiki built-in search and just use google: search +site:dd-wrt.com/wiki/

i was thinking the other day how would it be better to re-sort the wiki, if i had never come here and could help myself before posting a newb entry... (b/c i was trying to get something working on my new ubuntu box and was pretty much a newb)

perhaps we should adjust the wiki, if we can, make it 2-3 different wiki's. one with all the v23 stuff, then make another one for v24 and cross-link topics that are universal for both versions.

from my experience (i used to run a cdrw forum) most people are sheep, never read stickies, especially if there are more than 2-3; we have 13 and i know that i havent read half of them b/c they dont pertain to me (e.g. i have never bought a jtag, or played with CFE's) does the forum software have the option for sub-forums? - if so, we might want to move the CFE and JTAG into a subforum at the top (that would move 6 of the stickies...)

we definitely need to clean-up organize the stickies, it seems unruly.

maybe we need 4-5 regulars as mods (if they are going to be posting everyday, why not do a little work) other than the bots that post ads once and a while, and one or two incidents where a topic has gotten unruly; we dont have that much spam, or too many unruly posters.

i dont have tons of time, but if you need help as a mod, reorganizing the wiki or the forum, i can do an hour or two a day after work and i browse the forum lightly, during the day.

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Sash
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 13:54    Post subject: Reply with quote
(15:41:24) eko:
hello... it very noble idea... but how you will force users to obey - you know there are always dickheads there
(15:48:52) sash@.../Home:
just dont answer the posts...like other forums do
the main thing is that WE MUST DO SOMETHING. powerusers are pissed about things are handled and retire. but we need these guys to keep rolling
(15:49:52) eko:
we (powerusers) need new "our own" forum, where you can register only on invitation
(15:52:47) sash@..../Home:
hmm...what does this help on our main problem...the noobs? we need the forum/wiki to be a place everybody feels comfortable and remove the overhead...getting our load down--> more qualitiy, less work
(15:54:16) eko:
you're right...
(15:54:45) eko:
i'm getting 10+ pms every day... can't even answer all
(15:55:49) sash@../Home:
ack...and i delete 8 of them cause of questions already answered somewhere
(15:55:51) eko:
maybe we need to make better index in wiki, or always answer the post with wiki link
(15:59:20) sash@.../Home:
ack, too. the wiki should be the place for most standard problems.
i got a hint form a member to duplicate the web-if pages of every major release to the wiki and do a detailed description of the functions (or links if the functions havend changed). also deeplinks to the wiki pages from the routers webif pages
many of the questons would be answered with this.

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Forum Rules
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RTFM/STFW
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Throw some buzzwords into the WIKI search Exclamation
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redhawk0
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 15:00    Post subject: Reply with quote
OK Sash....I understand further now where you are trying to go with this.

Maybe we need a better method of editing the wiki too. Right now anyone with a computer can edit a page, post wrong info, inaccurate info, malicious info/links.

I know I have spend many hours cleaning some things up where I have properly discerned input. I don't edit where I have no knowledge...but that is where we need to depend on someone else that has that knowledge.

As for the Wiki....it might be prudent to start working on a separate wiki where valid useful data can be copied/modified for now...not made public yet....those basic functional instructions could be locked...but not the entire page...a separate section on the page could be started for "user input"...but the main subject would not allow modification by the general user. That could be something left to a wiki moderator only.

I've wondered about the moderators too. I see you Sash and Eko on occasion on the forum but that is it from the current list of almost 60K users. There are several/many that post regularly on the forum that would probably be a better choice (Heck, I would even be willing to participate if the higher-ups deem me worthy...even if I don't see myself in that role) This should be something that can be changed on a regular basis as people's lives (and forum participation) changes. We would just need to monitor moderator forum usage.

So these are just some of my thoughts....I'll keep tabs on this too...I would love to see where this goes.

redhawk

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Looking for more test units (newer models) for the project...got a brick?...PM me to make a donation. (USA) A donation is not a debricking service....it is a way to "Give back" to the dd-wrt project.

I do NOT provide personal assistance through chat or phone....so please don't ask.
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